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 Post subject: Gizmo manipulation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 7:39 am
Posts: 105
Manual manipulation (scale, move) of mesh/objects by the use of a gizmo rather then having to use the number imputs.

K


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:13 pm 
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Programmierdochfix
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For move and rotation their is already a primitive "gizmo" you can drag the selected object with the small coordinate system which is displayed at its center.

You can also drag an object around when you hold down the alt key. Please look at the first steps manual section 5.1.

But I too would like to have more intuitive interaction gizmos for static objects. Sooner or later I'll surely replace them. Can you tell me a program with your prefered interaction tools?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:51 am 
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your gizmo might be off center... some of mine are. not PnP's fault, but my own :). like Ralf said, hold Alt and drag the mesh around. nice eh?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:27 am 
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Thanks for the relpys :)

PnP has possibly the best terrain creation tools in any terrain app...but it's navigation and scene handelling are a little lacking :)

However the worst thing about PnP is it's current form of texture splatting it's actually not the best implimentation of the system...it does not really produce the best possible results and is PnP weakest point. That combined with the inability to scale textures makes it a little ugly to use. But it's stability and powerful tool set still makes it probably the best choice.

Your nearest competition however does do textureing very well and it's navigation and scene handling are superb...however it's as stable as a game of jenga and the thought of loosing months of work is not very applealing... www.freeworld3d.org ... if PnP did alpha painting like freeworld, and had scale settings for textures there really would be no competition at all...ever..anywhere PnP would be king.

The PnP texture splatting system is creating a huge amount of extra work for me...as I'm having to create 50% blends of all textures I use just to be able to fake soft transitions and to try and get rid of the block look of your splatting. Vertex alpha masks are the future :) still uses the same theory as what you use..just in a different way.

Please take these comments as constructive crits and not me putting your work down :)...I will battle on with PnP as it's stability and tools are superb...but it's texturing has been found wanting.

K


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:48 am 
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Programmierdochfix
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Hi, I'm always happy about every comment and constructive critics. So don't worry :)

But could you please describe a bit more detailed, what you mean by a lacking navigation and scene handling?

For the texturing:
Maybe you already read in the forum, I just converted the rendering core from fixed function to shader based rendering. Applying texture specific scalings is now easily possible. As it will only take about one hour, I will add it for the next release.

But, what's so bad about the texturing in PnP TC? OK, you only have one texture layer. But for most people that is absolutely enough. Sorry, but I really don't see a problem in our splatting implementation. Please, could you point me out how to improve it?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:14 pm 
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Navigation:

When holding the middle mouse down I feel you should be able to "fly" in the direction you are moving...and not have to constantly scroll the middle mouse up and down. You simply fly in the direction your facing...if your looking down..you move down (zoom in) if your looking up you fly up. Scrolling the middle mouse is a little cumbersome. WASD are also my natural movement keys hehe...so i keep hitting them all the time by accident.

Texturing:

As far as texturing goes...if you really want to see the best implementation of texture painting then you have to look at FreeWorld...it's outstanding and I will say beats PnP hands down.

This is how I guess things are done..in very basic terms.

Image

What this kinda means is terrain painted with PnP end up looking more like stylised pointalisem and blotchy...and not smooth blended terrain.

And here is a quick shot from freeWorld...the blending here is something that PnP simply will never be able to do currently. But I don't see why not as both applications are using alpha blending. FreeWorld is also pressure sensative for transparancy of the texture.

Image

Really in the end though it would be best if you simply download the demo of FreeWorld and see for yourself. I understand the need or want to do things differently and not to "copy" or to seam to copy how other people have done things...but...a wheel is round and it works..so why try and make a wheel a different shape. FreeWorlds texturing is elegant, easy and it works and produces simply stunning terrain. However under all the lovely painting is a very rough canvas that cracks a hell of a lot and I simply cannot afford to keep on loosing work :)

PnP is very very stable and very robust. It's creation tools are second to none and is a far better choice for making terrain....I simply dislike how you handle the texturing. It's clunky, random and produces vauge results.

Still..all said and done it's better then trying to do it all in Max...which was my other option hehe :)

I am greatly looking forward to the new version of PnP though and salute the work you and the team have done....outstanding...

K


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:39 pm 
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Programmierdochfix
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Ah, ok. I understand now what you mean.

That's directly connected to the texture layering, which we have discussed often during the last days here in the forum. I'll take a look at that after the next release, promised.

But just for my defence. I don't fake blending. Its just a vertex blending and no alphamap-texture-blending. But the results should be visually comparable. The only limitation is, that you cannot fade across more than one terrain quad. But that's completely in accordance with the original texture splatting description.

However, stay tuned :)
We can surely improve this.

And btw: there are other motion modes. (first steps manual) Try holding down shift+ctrl and move the mouse.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:15 pm 
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Ya see...I knew there was a reason for manuals...blush...I'll go read that bit again :)

"fake" not a good choice of words..sorry... simulate would have been better :)

Can't wait for the next release...

K


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:17 pm 
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Graphicanissimus
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from my artistic point of view this would be a powerfull texturing feature i also like to use. :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:47 pm 
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I know what navigation needs....it needs the gizmo to stay a relative scale so you can always see and use it. When trying to manuipulate large mesh the gizmo is so small it makes it impossible to select and use it.

If it stayed a relative scale to screen this would never be a prob.

K


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:29 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:32 pm
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I agree with Kaylon that PnP's weakest point is the texturing, but this is true of so many tools at the moment. In order for me to create a decent looking scene with just linear blending it really forces me to create the blends and for scenes that need transitions between 2 different organics, such as grass and sand, anywhere from 4-8 texture blends needed to be created. Also the splatting can limit the geometry of your landscape as you have to blend the shape of a cliff so the splatting doesn't appear "jagged".

"Megatextures" or another form paging terrain textures and applying the large unique texture over the entire terrain section is way the go. Uses a large amount of video memory, with out the need having the GPU do multi-texturing. Id Software's upcoming Quake Enemy territory uses this but if you look at the ground textures they don't very impressive. The tools used to generate the unique terrain texture are definitely the bottle neck here.

The only reasonable tool I've found to generate convincing unique terrain / bump/ light maps for a large terrains is L3DT. Given the base requirement of 128MB of video memory, the results of removing detail from a highly detailed unique texture to meet minimum video memory requirements looks more convincing than splatting textures.


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